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	<title>Comments on: Q: Why do we not have Miltons and Shakespeares?</title>
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		<title>By: web hosting</title>
		<link>http://theredbrickstore.com/uncategorized/q-why-do-we-not-have-miltons-and-shakespeares/comment-page-1/#comment-5060</link>
		<dc:creator>web hosting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2012 00:07:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I need a great place to host my blog, do you know of the?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I need a great place to host my blog, do you know of the?</p>
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		<title>By: dex</title>
		<link>http://theredbrickstore.com/uncategorized/q-why-do-we-not-have-miltons-and-shakespeares/comment-page-1/#comment-1905</link>
		<dc:creator>dex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:14:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theredbrickstore.com/?p=576#comment-1905</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve long lamented another facet of music performance in the church - the advent of the &quot;Mormon Top 40&quot; in our meetings.  This was, in most recent memory, most commonly displayed when the blubbering soon-to-leave missionary&#039;s fan club of 16-year-old young women would get up sing a Mormon song so sappy and dripping with syrupy nonsense it made my skin crawl and left me longing for relief from the pain of hearing even one more bar.  The fact the performances usually butchered the artists&#039; best-laid attempts at music is scarce to the point. That so many leaders in wards have allowed this practice to take root is astonishing.

Quality music can take root and flourish in our church but only if the upper ranks of church heirarchy are willing to change some pretty fundamental mantras.  Sadly, I don&#039;t see much chance of that in a group that was OK with changing &quot;Ave Maria&quot; to &quot;Heavenly Father&quot; so they could allow a Mormon performance of the beautiful song, and still wrap thier heads around such a crass attempt to Mormonize the wording.

During a stint as primary music leader, I tried to further the young minds&#039; development of music diversity through devoting some of my alloted music time to introduction of classical music.  I was astonished at how few of them had actually had had any exposure to anything other than the songs they sang in primary or the music they had heard their families play at home.  There was something disquieting they they were cluless about classical, jazz, blues, etc. but responded with almost hysterical vigor if I relented and allowed them to sing &quot;Scripture Power&quot;.

-dex</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve long lamented another facet of music performance in the church &#8211; the advent of the &#8220;Mormon Top 40&#8243; in our meetings.  This was, in most recent memory, most commonly displayed when the blubbering soon-to-leave missionary&#8217;s fan club of 16-year-old young women would get up sing a Mormon song so sappy and dripping with syrupy nonsense it made my skin crawl and left me longing for relief from the pain of hearing even one more bar.  The fact the performances usually butchered the artists&#8217; best-laid attempts at music is scarce to the point. That so many leaders in wards have allowed this practice to take root is astonishing.</p>
<p>Quality music can take root and flourish in our church but only if the upper ranks of church heirarchy are willing to change some pretty fundamental mantras.  Sadly, I don&#8217;t see much chance of that in a group that was OK with changing &#8220;Ave Maria&#8221; to &#8220;Heavenly Father&#8221; so they could allow a Mormon performance of the beautiful song, and still wrap thier heads around such a crass attempt to Mormonize the wording.</p>
<p>During a stint as primary music leader, I tried to further the young minds&#8217; development of music diversity through devoting some of my alloted music time to introduction of classical music.  I was astonished at how few of them had actually had had any exposure to anything other than the songs they sang in primary or the music they had heard their families play at home.  There was something disquieting they they were cluless about classical, jazz, blues, etc. but responded with almost hysterical vigor if I relented and allowed them to sing &#8220;Scripture Power&#8221;.</p>
<p>-dex</p>
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		<title>By: hawkgrrrl</title>
		<link>http://theredbrickstore.com/uncategorized/q-why-do-we-not-have-miltons-and-shakespeares/comment-page-1/#comment-1880</link>
		<dc:creator>hawkgrrrl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 22:29:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theredbrickstore.com/?p=576#comment-1880</guid>
		<description>I agree with Robin.  The problem with art and music in the church is the same as the problem with curriculum correlation (which has many great benefits, but some drawbacks, too) - that the people in charge of selection are not chosen for any actual expertise in the field.  Mediocrity breeds mediocrity.  Average people are average.  The blind leading the blind is one thing, but when they lead people who can see,  that&#039;s where the trouble begins.

I would bet 90% of church members don&#039;t know/care that there is no beauty or variety at church.  It is all about being functional, and wards and temples are now franchises of utilitarianism.  It hardly feels like worship when there is orange carpet or a basketball hoop over your head.  However, I suppose it could be said that Kirtland was built with funcionality in mind (the curtained off little pew rooms.

On the flip side, choirs at more liturgical services are full of beautiful trained voices, but musically, the singing a &quot;scripture&quot; thing doesn&#039;t work for me (you know, when they sound like they are making it up as they go along just to fit the tune).  But I suppose I would take it over ward choir.  And I would LOVE to hear a ward do &quot;How Can I Keep From Singing?&quot; unless they found a way to turn it into a soulless corporate-style dirge.  The other issue I have with choral music in the church is the predictability of how the songs are done.  There just aren&#039;t that many varieties:  one verse with men only, one with women only, sing this verse triumphantly to match the words, sing this one sadly to match the words, do this one a capella, have the congregation join the last verse.  It&#039;s just so rote.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Robin.  The problem with art and music in the church is the same as the problem with curriculum correlation (which has many great benefits, but some drawbacks, too) &#8211; that the people in charge of selection are not chosen for any actual expertise in the field.  Mediocrity breeds mediocrity.  Average people are average.  The blind leading the blind is one thing, but when they lead people who can see,  that&#8217;s where the trouble begins.</p>
<p>I would bet 90% of church members don&#8217;t know/care that there is no beauty or variety at church.  It is all about being functional, and wards and temples are now franchises of utilitarianism.  It hardly feels like worship when there is orange carpet or a basketball hoop over your head.  However, I suppose it could be said that Kirtland was built with funcionality in mind (the curtained off little pew rooms.</p>
<p>On the flip side, choirs at more liturgical services are full of beautiful trained voices, but musically, the singing a &#8220;scripture&#8221; thing doesn&#8217;t work for me (you know, when they sound like they are making it up as they go along just to fit the tune).  But I suppose I would take it over ward choir.  And I would LOVE to hear a ward do &#8220;How Can I Keep From Singing?&#8221; unless they found a way to turn it into a soulless corporate-style dirge.  The other issue I have with choral music in the church is the predictability of how the songs are done.  There just aren&#8217;t that many varieties:  one verse with men only, one with women only, sing this verse triumphantly to match the words, sing this one sadly to match the words, do this one a capella, have the congregation join the last verse.  It&#8217;s just so rote.</p>
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		<title>By: Wm Morris</title>
		<link>http://theredbrickstore.com/uncategorized/q-why-do-we-not-have-miltons-and-shakespeares/comment-page-1/#comment-1849</link>
		<dc:creator>Wm Morris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jun 2009 21:37:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theredbrickstore.com/?p=576#comment-1849</guid>
		<description>It may be the Danish blood in me talking, but I kind of like the blandness and austerity and even the mediocrity. There&#039;s something so incredibly subversive and democratic in us very &quot;bland&quot; folk walking around helping each other out and trying to a) build the kingdom of God and b) believing that we are gods in embryo and c) forming relationships with the understanding that they are to be eternal. And Is there anything more subversive and beautiful then a former stake president in a slightly-worn suit down on his hands and knees serving nursery children? And really, uniqueness and variety brings its own post-Romantic, consumerist pitfalls.

The conformity really drops away once you get to really know people. Society may warp us in some ways, but we&#039;re all pretty damn interesting when it comes right down to it. 

That said, I&#039;m not ready to give up aesthetics or shots at greatness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It may be the Danish blood in me talking, but I kind of like the blandness and austerity and even the mediocrity. There&#8217;s something so incredibly subversive and democratic in us very &#8220;bland&#8221; folk walking around helping each other out and trying to a) build the kingdom of God and b) believing that we are gods in embryo and c) forming relationships with the understanding that they are to be eternal. And Is there anything more subversive and beautiful then a former stake president in a slightly-worn suit down on his hands and knees serving nursery children? And really, uniqueness and variety brings its own post-Romantic, consumerist pitfalls.</p>
<p>The conformity really drops away once you get to really know people. Society may warp us in some ways, but we&#8217;re all pretty damn interesting when it comes right down to it. </p>
<p>That said, I&#8217;m not ready to give up aesthetics or shots at greatness.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin</title>
		<link>http://theredbrickstore.com/uncategorized/q-why-do-we-not-have-miltons-and-shakespeares/comment-page-1/#comment-1848</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jun 2009 19:59:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theredbrickstore.com/?p=576#comment-1848</guid>
		<description>My non-M husband toured the new temple this week.  When I asked him what he thought he pondered for a moment and then said &quot;it doesn&#039;t feel like a church&quot; - not a house of worship.  He then went on to explain that it felt like an empty concert hall or a museum between exhibits or a library without good books and a place to read.  Basically utilitarian.  And does everything have to come in cream and yellow *yuck*?  What ever happened to art missions for the building of Temples?  

We don&#039;t and never will have a Milton or a Shakespeare or Dante let alone a Handle or a Mozart or a Copeland.  We are the purest of puritanical and conformist.  We are Borg.  The chapels are sterile and empty, and since BKP got his hands on the music of the church that&#039;s been stripped too.  I remember having full brass with Handle&#039;s Messiah growing up, but not anymore that&#039;s &quot;off the Plan&quot;  Conform! conform! Resistance is futile you will be assimilated.

When all we are fed is the manual and Church approved sterility all you get is uninspiring mediocrity. Drones.  And mediocracy IS NOT good it&#039;s soulless it&#039;s Stepford Mormonism at it&#039;s best.

I also think the rampant theft and disregard for property rights has sent many good artistic member in direction of non-religious themes to make a living. (I can give examples if you want them).  What ever the reason it&#039;s sad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My non-M husband toured the new temple this week.  When I asked him what he thought he pondered for a moment and then said &#8220;it doesn&#8217;t feel like a church&#8221; &#8211; not a house of worship.  He then went on to explain that it felt like an empty concert hall or a museum between exhibits or a library without good books and a place to read.  Basically utilitarian.  And does everything have to come in cream and yellow *yuck*?  What ever happened to art missions for the building of Temples?  </p>
<p>We don&#8217;t and never will have a Milton or a Shakespeare or Dante let alone a Handle or a Mozart or a Copeland.  We are the purest of puritanical and conformist.  We are Borg.  The chapels are sterile and empty, and since BKP got his hands on the music of the church that&#8217;s been stripped too.  I remember having full brass with Handle&#8217;s Messiah growing up, but not anymore that&#8217;s &#8220;off the Plan&#8221;  Conform! conform! Resistance is futile you will be assimilated.</p>
<p>When all we are fed is the manual and Church approved sterility all you get is uninspiring mediocrity. Drones.  And mediocracy IS NOT good it&#8217;s soulless it&#8217;s Stepford Mormonism at it&#8217;s best.</p>
<p>I also think the rampant theft and disregard for property rights has sent many good artistic member in direction of non-religious themes to make a living. (I can give examples if you want them).  What ever the reason it&#8217;s sad.</p>
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		<title>By: Emily U</title>
		<link>http://theredbrickstore.com/uncategorized/q-why-do-we-not-have-miltons-and-shakespeares/comment-page-1/#comment-1828</link>
		<dc:creator>Emily U</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:09:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theredbrickstore.com/?p=576#comment-1828</guid>
		<description>Money, money, money.  It&#039;s a big part of the problem.  The Anglican service Kristine went to had not only a paid professional organist and choir director, but most likely paid section leaders as well.  And 2-3 hours per week of rehearsal time.  And local input into the church&#039;s construction and interior design, no doubt.  And maybe even commissioned compositions.

The Mormon church can&#039;t come close to the aesthetics of other churches with it&#039;s grow-as-fast-as possible ethic.  I don&#039;t think there&#039;s anything wrong with that.  BUT, we can certainly do better.  In the past, the church had professional music trainers at the stake level, but it stopped that when the church grew significantly outside the intermountain west.  The church currently has satellite leadership training, why not satellite master classes on conducting and organ playing?  The church has area authorities, why not area music authorities who do training at the local level?  The church has a little music training material on their website, but it&#039;s very very rudimentary and it will probably never create a competent ward organist.  The church should support people who have some skills and ability by providing the training they need to take things to the next level.  Laziness is probably not the issue, Ardis, it&#039;s lack of institutional support and burnout.  How about asking someone if they want a long term calling in music and giving them real support (like money for lessons and child care for practicing)?  I bet there&#039;d be people who would jump at the chance and work hard at it.

Also, when there are only a handful of full time music jobs in the church (all in SLC), it&#039;s a wonder ANYONE becomes a professional organist in the LDS church.  Choir directors are more understandable because there are high school/college jobs in that.  But pretty much the only place to work as an organist is for another church, which is a hard lifestyle to maintain as a Mormon.  I know, I&#039;m living it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Money, money, money.  It&#8217;s a big part of the problem.  The Anglican service Kristine went to had not only a paid professional organist and choir director, but most likely paid section leaders as well.  And 2-3 hours per week of rehearsal time.  And local input into the church&#8217;s construction and interior design, no doubt.  And maybe even commissioned compositions.</p>
<p>The Mormon church can&#8217;t come close to the aesthetics of other churches with it&#8217;s grow-as-fast-as possible ethic.  I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s anything wrong with that.  BUT, we can certainly do better.  In the past, the church had professional music trainers at the stake level, but it stopped that when the church grew significantly outside the intermountain west.  The church currently has satellite leadership training, why not satellite master classes on conducting and organ playing?  The church has area authorities, why not area music authorities who do training at the local level?  The church has a little music training material on their website, but it&#8217;s very very rudimentary and it will probably never create a competent ward organist.  The church should support people who have some skills and ability by providing the training they need to take things to the next level.  Laziness is probably not the issue, Ardis, it&#8217;s lack of institutional support and burnout.  How about asking someone if they want a long term calling in music and giving them real support (like money for lessons and child care for practicing)?  I bet there&#8217;d be people who would jump at the chance and work hard at it.</p>
<p>Also, when there are only a handful of full time music jobs in the church (all in SLC), it&#8217;s a wonder ANYONE becomes a professional organist in the LDS church.  Choir directors are more understandable because there are high school/college jobs in that.  But pretty much the only place to work as an organist is for another church, which is a hard lifestyle to maintain as a Mormon.  I know, I&#8217;m living it.</p>
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		<title>By: Seraphine</title>
		<link>http://theredbrickstore.com/uncategorized/q-why-do-we-not-have-miltons-and-shakespeares/comment-page-1/#comment-1827</link>
		<dc:creator>Seraphine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:09:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theredbrickstore.com/?p=576#comment-1827</guid>
		<description>And Kristine, nice post--I am in complete agreement about the liturgical questions you raise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And Kristine, nice post&#8211;I am in complete agreement about the liturgical questions you raise.</p>
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		<title>By: Seraphine</title>
		<link>http://theredbrickstore.com/uncategorized/q-why-do-we-not-have-miltons-and-shakespeares/comment-page-1/#comment-1826</link>
		<dc:creator>Seraphine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:07:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theredbrickstore.com/?p=576#comment-1826</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve luckily been in a lot of wards where the ward choir directors were given a lot of leeway in the kinds of music they performed (I&#039;ve done Bach, Mendelssohn, etc., in different church choirs). 

I have had experiences, though, that resemble that of Moriah&#039;s. I am thinking in particular of our ward choir director when I was in high school. He was one of the most gifted musicians I have ever met (he became a professor of music, but could have easily been a professional musician), and he really struggled to use his musical talents in church. We had one of the best ward choirs I&#039;ve been in with a not overly strenuous practice schedule, but the leadership in our stake put so many limits on the types of music that he could and couldn&#039;t do, that he was constantly frustrated. He wasn&#039;t able to use his talents to bless the ward as fully as he could have. It was really hard to see his frustration because all he wanted to do was bring the joy of beautiful, sacred music to the lives of the people in our ward.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve luckily been in a lot of wards where the ward choir directors were given a lot of leeway in the kinds of music they performed (I&#8217;ve done Bach, Mendelssohn, etc., in different church choirs). </p>
<p>I have had experiences, though, that resemble that of Moriah&#8217;s. I am thinking in particular of our ward choir director when I was in high school. He was one of the most gifted musicians I have ever met (he became a professor of music, but could have easily been a professional musician), and he really struggled to use his musical talents in church. We had one of the best ward choirs I&#8217;ve been in with a not overly strenuous practice schedule, but the leadership in our stake put so many limits on the types of music that he could and couldn&#8217;t do, that he was constantly frustrated. He wasn&#8217;t able to use his talents to bless the ward as fully as he could have. It was really hard to see his frustration because all he wanted to do was bring the joy of beautiful, sacred music to the lives of the people in our ward.</p>
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		<title>By: Kristine</title>
		<link>http://theredbrickstore.com/uncategorized/q-why-do-we-not-have-miltons-and-shakespeares/comment-page-1/#comment-1825</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:05:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theredbrickstore.com/?p=576#comment-1825</guid>
		<description>Well, there it is folks:  if John and I agree on anything, you can be confident that it is universally true.  (And you should probably also check your food storage :))</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, there it is folks:  if John and I agree on anything, you can be confident that it is universally true.  (And you should probably also check your food storage <img src='http://theredbrickstore.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> )</p>
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		<title>By: John Mansfield</title>
		<link>http://theredbrickstore.com/uncategorized/q-why-do-we-not-have-miltons-and-shakespeares/comment-page-1/#comment-1824</link>
		<dc:creator>John Mansfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:02:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theredbrickstore.com/?p=576#comment-1824</guid>
		<description>Not to detract from the worthwhile concerns expressed, but I wouldn&#039;t be too hard on that Hymnplicity.  The claim of &quot;a fast and economical way to use your ward choir&quot; stirred memory of a book on the Mormon Tabernacle Choir from about 30 years ago.  During one of rehersals chronicled, the choir director spent a few minutes on some standard, familiar, straight-from-the-book hymns that would be used to fill out the next Sunday&#039;s broadcast.  &lt;i&gt;If&lt;/i&gt; this Hymnplicity were used in such a way, giving the choir something to sing every week or two while more involved preparation continued with music that needed time, then that would be a good thing.  Professional orchestras do the same thing with their already-played-it-a-half-dozen-times repetoire.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to detract from the worthwhile concerns expressed, but I wouldn&#8217;t be too hard on that Hymnplicity.  The claim of &#8220;a fast and economical way to use your ward choir&#8221; stirred memory of a book on the Mormon Tabernacle Choir from about 30 years ago.  During one of rehersals chronicled, the choir director spent a few minutes on some standard, familiar, straight-from-the-book hymns that would be used to fill out the next Sunday&#8217;s broadcast.  <i>If</i> this Hymnplicity were used in such a way, giving the choir something to sing every week or two while more involved preparation continued with music that needed time, then that would be a good thing.  Professional orchestras do the same thing with their already-played-it-a-half-dozen-times repetoire.</p>
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