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	<title>Comments on: Stranger than Forgiveness</title>
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	<link>http://theredbrickstore.com/sunstone/stranger-than-forgiveness/</link>
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		<title>By: Glenn Smith</title>
		<link>http://theredbrickstore.com/sunstone/stranger-than-forgiveness/comment-page-1/#comment-4589</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 05:58:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theredbrickstore.com/?p=759#comment-4589</guid>
		<description>In the same sense that mercy cannot rob justice,  forgiveness cannot remove consequences. When we seek forgiveness for our misdeeds, we must still face the consequences. The three &quot;R&#039;s&quot; of repentance (Recognition, Remorse, Resolve) must all be experienced as we seek forgiveness. 

A person may consort with a prostitute, then repent and receive forgiveness from all concerned (prostitute, family, church, God) but still live the the consequences of a disease.

A victim may also initiate the extension of forgiveness. You may recall the case of Robert Kleason who killed two missionaries in Texas in 1974. 

http://en.wickipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Elmer_Kleason

I recall reading about one missionary&#039;s mother visiting Kleason in prison to extend forgiveness to him (sorry - I cannot find a link to this report.)  Kleason was given forgiveness but still had to pay the demands of justice. (Unfortunately, it got derailed on earth but I expect he is serving time elsewhere.)

I like the message of the last paragraph of the post, that, like the missionary mother, we must confront our problems lest we wallow in self pity. Then, we can find forgivesness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the same sense that mercy cannot rob justice,  forgiveness cannot remove consequences. When we seek forgiveness for our misdeeds, we must still face the consequences. The three &#8220;R&#8217;s&#8221; of repentance (Recognition, Remorse, Resolve) must all be experienced as we seek forgiveness. </p>
<p>A person may consort with a prostitute, then repent and receive forgiveness from all concerned (prostitute, family, church, God) but still live the the consequences of a disease.</p>
<p>A victim may also initiate the extension of forgiveness. You may recall the case of Robert Kleason who killed two missionaries in Texas in 1974. </p>
<p><a href="http://en.wickipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Elmer_Kleason" rel="nofollow">http://en.wickipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Elmer_Kleason</a></p>
<p>I recall reading about one missionary&#8217;s mother visiting Kleason in prison to extend forgiveness to him (sorry &#8211; I cannot find a link to this report.)  Kleason was given forgiveness but still had to pay the demands of justice. (Unfortunately, it got derailed on earth but I expect he is serving time elsewhere.)</p>
<p>I like the message of the last paragraph of the post, that, like the missionary mother, we must confront our problems lest we wallow in self pity. Then, we can find forgivesness.</p>
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		<title>By: antinori wines</title>
		<link>http://theredbrickstore.com/sunstone/stranger-than-forgiveness/comment-page-1/#comment-4581</link>
		<dc:creator>antinori wines</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Feb 2010 23:47:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theredbrickstore.com/?p=759#comment-4581</guid>
		<description>You made a good point, but have you really thought about how it&#039;d affect other people?  I do not say you&#039;re wrong, I just need to point out that there&#039;s more than 1 side to this story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You made a good point, but have you really thought about how it&#8217;d affect other people?  I do not say you&#8217;re wrong, I just need to point out that there&#8217;s more than 1 side to this story.</p>
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		<title>By: jendoop</title>
		<link>http://theredbrickstore.com/sunstone/stranger-than-forgiveness/comment-page-1/#comment-4576</link>
		<dc:creator>jendoop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 22:11:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theredbrickstore.com/?p=759#comment-4576</guid>
		<description>Great post and comments. Wonderful exploration of forgiveness. There probably are well-meaning people who simply avoid dealing with serious issues when they think they are forgiving. 

This struck me: &quot;They were passive main characters, letting other forces run their lives.&quot; This can be about those sins of omission, that no one knows but us. The promptings we receive but ignore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post and comments. Wonderful exploration of forgiveness. There probably are well-meaning people who simply avoid dealing with serious issues when they think they are forgiving. </p>
<p>This struck me: &#8220;They were passive main characters, letting other forces run their lives.&#8221; This can be about those sins of omission, that no one knows but us. The promptings we receive but ignore.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin</title>
		<link>http://theredbrickstore.com/sunstone/stranger-than-forgiveness/comment-page-1/#comment-4575</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 15:55:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theredbrickstore.com/?p=759#comment-4575</guid>
		<description>This reminds me of &quot;Till We Have Faces&quot; by CS Lewis.  The boiled down point of the story was that until we have a face, until we know ourselves and our story we cannot possibly stand face to face with God.  I love that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This reminds me of &#8220;Till We Have Faces&#8221; by CS Lewis.  The boiled down point of the story was that until we have a face, until we know ourselves and our story we cannot possibly stand face to face with God.  I love that.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan Bunker</title>
		<link>http://theredbrickstore.com/sunstone/stranger-than-forgiveness/comment-page-1/#comment-4572</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan Bunker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:00:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theredbrickstore.com/?p=759#comment-4572</guid>
		<description>Love this! Sometimes by pretending to &quot;forgive&quot; someone we are really just ignoring the problem. Real forgiveness is an engagement with the problem and then active steps to make the results of it right. For most small things this means we forget them and ignore them. But for larger things sometimes it means we remember them and document them, and do our best to fix them in our own lives. And then eventually we move on to the next thing. In the end if we can&#039;t become more than what has happened to us, this is the tragedy. I have seen people who have become more than their tragedy and so have transcended it. And that is the ultimate victory in life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Love this! Sometimes by pretending to &#8220;forgive&#8221; someone we are really just ignoring the problem. Real forgiveness is an engagement with the problem and then active steps to make the results of it right. For most small things this means we forget them and ignore them. But for larger things sometimes it means we remember them and document them, and do our best to fix them in our own lives. And then eventually we move on to the next thing. In the end if we can&#8217;t become more than what has happened to us, this is the tragedy. I have seen people who have become more than their tragedy and so have transcended it. And that is the ultimate victory in life.</p>
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		<title>By: Jana</title>
		<link>http://theredbrickstore.com/sunstone/stranger-than-forgiveness/comment-page-1/#comment-4569</link>
		<dc:creator>Jana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 05:34:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theredbrickstore.com/?p=759#comment-4569</guid>
		<description>[My apologies in advance for the long, rambly comment, but your post struck a chord...]

This part of your post resonated with me:
&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;if you relinquish the story of your life, your soul is bound to start fading. Life seemed to regain richness and meaning when the women actively re-entered their stories..”&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I had an experience a few months ago where I realized that I&#039;ve never fully faced some of my experiences from my teen years...so I started taking some active steps to recover the pieces of my story so I can pull a narrative together. This process of staring down the past is both cathartic and completely unsettling.  And now I can&#039;t wait till the story takes on a more cohesive form (as an example, here&#039;s a blogpost about part of that process: http://pilgrimgirl.blogspot.com/2009/10/on-photos-and-synchronicity.html )

I don&#039;t know if I can claim that my life is &quot;regaining richness,&quot; as a result of my efforts but I can say that it&#039;s quite therapeutic to face those old hurts and comfort the little girl inside of me who&#039;s still afraid.  Additionally, much of the changing nature of my relationship with the LDS church has revolved around challenging the rather passive script for my life that I adopted for many years, and that&#039;s been hugely enlivening for me.  And one more example: in the past few years I&#039;ve encountered many people within the disability community who are using written (or spoken) narrative to &#039;talk back&#039; to a society that continues to devalue them--another way in which story functions to add richness to their lives. (I also just last week saw Rafael Campo speak about his work with illness narratives and was terrifically moved by his work on medical poetry: http://www.rafaelcampo.com/rc_lit_med/rc_lit_med_index.html )

A few weeks ago I sat in the audience of a panel of old-fart writer-historians and they all spoke about how their work--though not at all autobiographical--was really about making sense of their childhood demons.  So now I&#039;m beginning to wonder how much of all literary writing (even academic work) is about this desire to &quot;actively re-enter&quot; our personal stories.  There&#039;s certainly some sense that an author can control a narrative in ways that s/he can&#039;t control real life, and that can be a therapeutic process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[My apologies in advance for the long, rambly comment, but your post struck a chord...]</p>
<p>This part of your post resonated with me:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;if you relinquish the story of your life, your soul is bound to start fading. Life seemed to regain richness and meaning when the women actively re-entered their stories..”</p></blockquote>
<p>I had an experience a few months ago where I realized that I&#8217;ve never fully faced some of my experiences from my teen years&#8230;so I started taking some active steps to recover the pieces of my story so I can pull a narrative together. This process of staring down the past is both cathartic and completely unsettling.  And now I can&#8217;t wait till the story takes on a more cohesive form (as an example, here&#8217;s a blogpost about part of that process: <a href="http://pilgrimgirl.blogspot.com/2009/10/on-photos-and-synchronicity.html" rel="nofollow">http://pilgrimgirl.blogspot.com/2009/10/on-photos-and-synchronicity.html</a> )</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if I can claim that my life is &#8220;regaining richness,&#8221; as a result of my efforts but I can say that it&#8217;s quite therapeutic to face those old hurts and comfort the little girl inside of me who&#8217;s still afraid.  Additionally, much of the changing nature of my relationship with the LDS church has revolved around challenging the rather passive script for my life that I adopted for many years, and that&#8217;s been hugely enlivening for me.  And one more example: in the past few years I&#8217;ve encountered many people within the disability community who are using written (or spoken) narrative to &#8216;talk back&#8217; to a society that continues to devalue them&#8211;another way in which story functions to add richness to their lives. (I also just last week saw Rafael Campo speak about his work with illness narratives and was terrifically moved by his work on medical poetry: <a href="http://www.rafaelcampo.com/rc_lit_med/rc_lit_med_index.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.rafaelcampo.com/rc_lit_med/rc_lit_med_index.html</a> )</p>
<p>A few weeks ago I sat in the audience of a panel of old-fart writer-historians and they all spoke about how their work&#8211;though not at all autobiographical&#8211;was really about making sense of their childhood demons.  So now I&#8217;m beginning to wonder how much of all literary writing (even academic work) is about this desire to &#8220;actively re-enter&#8221; our personal stories.  There&#8217;s certainly some sense that an author can control a narrative in ways that s/he can&#8217;t control real life, and that can be a therapeutic process.</p>
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		<title>By: Nitsav</title>
		<link>http://theredbrickstore.com/sunstone/stranger-than-forgiveness/comment-page-1/#comment-4568</link>
		<dc:creator>Nitsav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:16:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theredbrickstore.com/?p=759#comment-4568</guid>
		<description>I love Stranger than Fiction. Great flick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love Stranger than Fiction. Great flick.</p>
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		<title>By: djinn</title>
		<link>http://theredbrickstore.com/sunstone/stranger-than-forgiveness/comment-page-1/#comment-4567</link>
		<dc:creator>djinn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 21:47:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theredbrickstore.com/?p=759#comment-4567</guid>
		<description>I recommend a recent New Yorker article by Jared Diamond that discusses the human need for revenge.  He tells a heartbreaking story of the consequences from his father-in-law failing to take revenge when it was offered.  An abstract of the story is smooshed up where my website is supposed to be</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recommend a recent New Yorker article by Jared Diamond that discusses the human need for revenge.  He tells a heartbreaking story of the consequences from his father-in-law failing to take revenge when it was offered.  An abstract of the story is smooshed up where my website is supposed to be</p>
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		<title>By: Carol</title>
		<link>http://theredbrickstore.com/sunstone/stranger-than-forgiveness/comment-page-1/#comment-4565</link>
		<dc:creator>Carol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:17:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theredbrickstore.com/?p=759#comment-4565</guid>
		<description>Great post!  I have learned that when we forgive, we may first experience great suffering from an offender.  It may take time to process the pain, but eventually we can choose to be the protagonist in our own life and no longer assume a victim mentality.

Forgiveness allows us to move from being a victim to a survivor and a victor.  It empowers us to find peace amid suffering.  It makes us whole.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post!  I have learned that when we forgive, we may first experience great suffering from an offender.  It may take time to process the pain, but eventually we can choose to be the protagonist in our own life and no longer assume a victim mentality.</p>
<p>Forgiveness allows us to move from being a victim to a survivor and a victor.  It empowers us to find peace amid suffering.  It makes us whole.</p>
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